AND HERE’S MODI
AND HERE’S MODI is an inside look at the man behind the microphone. Hosted by comedian, Modi (@modi_live), AHM features a raw and unfiltered side of the comedian rarely seen on stage. He always finds the funny as he navigates the worlds of comedy, trending topics, his personal life and spirituality. AHM is co-hosted by Periel Aschenbrand (@perielaschenbrand) and Leo Veiga (@leo_veiga_).
AND HERE’S MODI
Eshel
Episode 165: Modi and Leo are joined by Miryam Kabakov, the executive director of Eshel, an organizing that seeks to build LGBTQ+ inclusive Orthodox Jewish communities.
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Hello everybody and welcome to And Here is Modi. We are joined today with my husband Leo. Hi, everyone. Hi. And then we are also joined with Miriam Kabukov.
SPEAKER_01:Good. You got it.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you. It's not that hard.
SPEAKER_01:First try.
SPEAKER_04:It's not that hard at all.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:If you're Russian, if you're Polish issues. Kabakov. Who is the executive director of Eschel? And Eschel is uh an organization for Orthodox Jews that are gay.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05:Part of the LGBT plus community.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yes, the whole thing. All the uh letters.
SPEAKER_05:All the letters.
SPEAKER_01:And um not just that.
SPEAKER_03:All the letters. All the letters.
SPEAKER_01:Just throw them all in there. That we wanna our mission really, what it really, really is, it is we do a lot of things, but it's to make orthodoxy a place for everybody. So that if you come out you do not need to leave your home, the community, you don't need to leave your shoal, you don't need to leave all your spirituality behind. And I think my father would always say, a blessed memory, is it good for the Jews? Like that was anything in life. Is it good for the Jews?
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:And I believe that it's good for the Jews.
SPEAKER_00:Same.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That like the diversity, the who we are. This is who we are. Forget diversity. It's who we are within our communities.
SPEAKER_04:I before I met Eschel, I was I was on that journey. Yeah. I was keeping everything and also being gay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, keeping all the rel uh whatever observant Jewish things I was doing, yeah. And and being gay, and I never really had a um a problem with it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, why not?
SPEAKER_04:Because I just didn't.
SPEAKER_01:What well tell me about that.
SPEAKER_04:It was just um I I I I can go to synagogue and I can go on a date with a man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So it's not a big deal for me.
SPEAKER_01:The same day.
SPEAKER_04:The same the same day.
SPEAKER_01:And it was like seamless for you.
SPEAKER_04:It was seamless. I didn't have um crazy um uh guilt and back and um and f feelings of of doing something wrong.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Do you know why?
SPEAKER_04:I I don't. I'm just blessed. God bless bl blessed me with that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a gift. It could maybe your parents, maybe your upbringing, like the love that they showed you. I'm just poking around here because I'm wondering if it's like you just were raised with a feeling of self-acceptance.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know about that. I was I no, I'm it's not I'm not that I'm not a catherapy person.
SPEAKER_05:So I mean we've been together 10 years, and that's something I can't, I don't you you say the same sound bite over and over. You're like, I was doing it, I had no problem, I don't know what everyone's talking about, and I still haven't like fully digested what that looks and must have felt like.
SPEAKER_04:It's a feeling inside. You I feel inside that I'm this is not a bad thing I'm doing. Yeah, it's not a bad thing I'm doing, even if somebody says it is, yeah, inside you have a feeling, you have an inner feeling, and I'm like, I love going to synagogue, and then I have a date tonight with somebody who's named uh Bruce.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04:Whatever it was, uh, you know, and that was what it was.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_04:What about you? You're growing up. What about your your how did how did you become the executive director of Eschel?
SPEAKER_01:So I'll say that I actually attribute my ability to synthesize all of these things, all of these identities, to my day school upbringing. I went to Ramaz.
SPEAKER_04:Um Second guest in a row. We've had to Ramaz.
SPEAKER_01:I know you guys are on a streak. I love this.
SPEAKER_04:So I'm gonna hit you with the same question. So you you must have come from a rich family too.
SPEAKER_01:So at Ramaz, you either had to have money or you had to be really, really smart. I was neither of those things. And I think that um we so I'm one of six children.
SPEAKER_05:Same.
SPEAKER_01:You too, right?
SPEAKER_05:I have five sisters.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, where are you in the birth order?
SPEAKER_05:I'm the second oldest.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So you are the middle child of the first set, and I'm the middle child of the second set. Never heard of put that way, but so in social work school, they say you have to divide the family into threes. There's oldest, middle, youngest, oldest, middle, youngest. So, you know, whatever you figure out if you're four kids, then the fourth one is like either the oldest or they're the baby, whatever. But um, we were six kids, and at one point Rabbi Luxteen wanted to give my mother an award for the most kids in day school at one time at Ramaz.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he was sort of joking. But I think they just love that we were a big family and we were very active in the shoulder that went along with, you know, uh KJ. And um, and my upbringing taught me that Hashem loves me for who I am, and Hashem made me this way. God made me this way. So, like, how do you put those like that? Has to be the equation is uh God loves me for who I am, God made me this way, I'm okay, right? This is who I am, I can't change it. And I tried. I don't know if you tried. Did you try?
SPEAKER_04:Uh I I I dabbled in it. I dabbled in it, but it again, um it it didn't everything just well, everything I did that felt right, I stayed with. And everything that did this doesn't feel right, let me not do that.
SPEAKER_01:You just didn't do it, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But yeah, this is Hashem, the way Hashem made it. We just came out of Yom Kippur. I'm gonna just set up for just for the the audience that's listening to us right now. We don't tape um, this isn't like a live taping, obviously, and it's also we tape out of order. We are sitting today, we've landed in our chairs while having watched the news of all the hostages being released. So that's happening in our there's we want to be in the streets screaming and yelling of happiness and singing and simchatura and all of that stuff. And um, and so that's what we and we we just finished the high holidays too. Yeah, you know the the the the prayer keyna kachoma beyond in the the the clay in the in the hand of the uh of the the creator, the potter, yeah, or the silver in the in the in the hands of the of the silversmith or the gold and that which is the the the one of the prayers during Khondre services. It's like literally you created us, you did it, you you made us this way, right? You know, that's such a strong prayer to me. Whenever we sing that, I'm like, wow, yeah. So yes, God created you.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So what am I supposed to do about this? Yeah, I I can only just love myself for who I am. And the other thing that Ramaz taught me was that we're living in the modern world. This is modern orthodoxy, right? We're living in the modern world. We have to make sense of modernity in light of Torah and in light of what we know. And so, um, you know, it's nobody thinks, well, a lot of people think it's a choice still, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_05:That's a whole nother podcast episode, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_05:Well, we could talk about that, just that thesis for a long time.
SPEAKER_01:Choice versus right. Um and but, you know, like it modern science has shown that it's not a choice. So, like, here we are, and what are we gonna do? Am I supposed to stop being orthodox, stop keeping mitzvah, leave my community behind, leave everything that gave me everything that I am? You know, that's really what it is for me. Like, my I don't, you know, I don't know how you both how you feel about your religious upbringing, but like it gave me so much. It gave me an identity, it gave me a sense of purpose in life, and you know, um, it held me. And I love the rituals. I'm a huge Davening nerd. My partner and I, we just like love Davening together, I know, right? And um that's what it gave me. It gave me all that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think I part of the things that people most of your community and your fan base is just adoration and loves you, and they're so positive and wonderful. The small sliver that we hear from who can't seem to grapple with this fact that you are both observant and gay, they I what I don't understand is they want you to what which one do they want? Do they want you to stop being Jewish or do they want you to stop being gay? Because to say that they just want you to stop being gay is to acknowledge that there must be people in their community who they know are just putting a pillow over it and choking it down and hiding it and leaving, you know, it just in an effort not to leave those traditions behind, sort of masking what they need to mask so that they can keep their their place in the community, they can have a shoulder to go to, they don't have to leave their families. And I think people with you can't seem to kind of wrap their head around the multi-faceted aspect of your spirituality in your personal life.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And to answer your question, do they want me to stifle being gay or not? I don't care. I could care less what they want. I'd I'm on a mission to create laughter, bring Meshik energy, uh, anshebad, get into Olamhaba. I I am on a path. I am on that that's what I'm doing. And what if some guy has this question about that's his or her problem, not mine. And I focus on the people who are like genuinely uh understand what I'm doing, we are doing together, you know, you and I, Leo and I.
SPEAKER_05:Um well, I think that's what you said about bringing it into modernity. That's where you lose people, a lot of people, from what I from my perspective as a non-Jew who is operating it within the community, is that you know, I hear Torah is Torah, you can't change, this is what God says, and then but then there's also this idea of like, well, it's 2025 and we understand how you know white people are just gay.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_05:And so how do you fold that together in a nice origami crane for people to play with?
SPEAKER_01:I think you know what Modi's saying is like you live your life, you're doing it in partnership, that's actually a Jewish value, you know that doesn't have to be, you know, pe someone can live their life alone and be very productive, but you're creating something together. And and that, you know, they say like if you don't have physical children, if you teach, then those people become your children, and that is a way to parent.
SPEAKER_04:Um very nice said, very nice, very well said.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think there's a lot of flexibility within our tradition to give give bring the gifts forth, you know, that we have to give. And I I think the most important thing is your creativity and the gifts you bring to the world. Um, and I think people are seeing that with both of you. They're seeing that. Like they're not complaining that much about you being gay or not being married to a woman, right? They're just really there to receive what what your gift is.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So, yeah, that's how I see it. You know, what is what is your purpose? Hashem put me here for a purpose, and I have to live that out. If it's good for the world, if it's good for the Jews, I gotta live it out, you know?
SPEAKER_05:So how so where is your purpose? Yeah, how does how you think you know how did Eschel sprout out of that?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so I think for me for people who don't know, that you should give a little history of Ashel. That's where where it began, how it began.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, sure. I'll do that. Um I'll just say that um uh but first I'll start with history of myself, because that's I know that better. Um, or just as well. That I grew up in Ramaz, and it was not easy for me to accept the fact that I was gay back then.
SPEAKER_04:In high school, you knew you were gay? Yeah. Were you out?
SPEAKER_01:No, God no, nobody was out. Oh, good for you. Was it good?
SPEAKER_05:I was out at a public high school in like rural Georgia. Oh god.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, how was that?
SPEAKER_05:One gay kid. Yeah, everyone loved me. How could they not?
SPEAKER_01:What's not to love?
SPEAKER_05:No, some people tried to start stuff and then I would just quickly shut that down.
SPEAKER_04:But anyway, back to the time frame with the high school, you know, like in the 80s. In the 80s, yeah. It was a different time.
SPEAKER_01:I was with um Elon Gold's brother. Ari. Ari was in Ramaz at that time, and there were there were a few of us, and we only discovered each other afterwards, you know, like 10 or 20 years later. Um, we'd show up at like the same clubs or the same groups or whatever happening on the upper west side at the time. And um, but it took me a really long time to stop praying that I would be different and stop looking for alternatives. Like, like I went to yeshiva in Israel after high school, and the first person I came out to was the rabbi of this yeshiva. And he said, you know, you just need to develop your feminine side. And the way that you do that is that you go work with children. And so the following year I stayed an extra year and I did She Witlu and Me, which is uh national service where you work, you volunteer, and I worked at um Eit Hanim, um, the um the children's division of Eight Hanim, but with severely uh developmentally developmentally disabled children.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And it was one of the most difficult experiences of my life. And it was the most gratifying, and it actually like I, you know, grew up during that year very much so. And at the end of the year, I went back to him and he said, So, where'd you work with the children? And I told him, and he was like, I didn't mean like like that, like were you actually like you know, like like you're touching the edges of your soul every single day, working with incredibly um challenged challenging kids who grew up in very challenging places and on top of their mental illness. And I said to him, But you know, I I really am still not feeling it. Um, you know, the attraction to men, and you know, and this isn't didn't really do it for me. Um, but then, you know, so I left Israel and then I went to Stern College because I love the Jewish stuff and I wanted more of it. And at Stern I met my first girlfriend, and we were like under the radar or 34th Street and Park, like just dating and doing all those crazy things, and nobody knew. And we were terrified because there was a legend of a lesbian who had been at Stern College who had gotten a legend of a lesbian.
SPEAKER_05:Legend of a lesbian. That's it.
SPEAKER_01:We can oh my God, I love that. Um, that she got kicked out, you know, for not she was not just because she was gay, but she was causing a lot of other kinds of trouble. Ruckus. Ruckus. And um I knew I needed to leave like starting college. I needed to get out of town. And so I moved actually to California to get like as far away as possible because it was not good for my mental health to be completely closeted, living that life. And when I was in, I lived in Berkeley and I met this group of other women um who were who were orthodox and they were lesbians, and they sort of were like, they were actually all converts. It was very interesting. And like they were like, Well, you teach us how to be orthodox and we'll teach you how to be gay. It was like this beautiful crossover. And um, and so they actually helped me come out a little bit more to myself and stop hoping that I was somebody else or, you know, that I would change. And then I was gonna go to I was gonna go back to visit Israel for like just two weeks to see my family. And um, one of the women said to me, you know, there's this new group forming in Jerusalem, and you should go. And it's actually gonna be there during the two weeks that you're there. And so I was like, oh my God, you know, Orthodox lesbians in Jerusalem, what could be better than that? So I um I get the address, and at the end of my two weeks, I go to the group. That's it was like that pattern of like the third Thursday or whatever. And it's sort of like in this darkly lit room with all these like women lounging around on couches, you know, just socializing. And I walk in, and the first person I see is the woman who interviewed me to get into Stern College.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And I was like, what are you doing here? And she said the same thing you're doing here. And it was like that's like the Asimon dropped, you know, like uh and I was like, okay, like I think this is it's okay. It's I'm gonna be okay. She's okay. She was my role model at Stern, and now she's here. So that's what sort of was the moment for me of full self-acceptance. And then I came back to New York actually two years later, not two weeks later, because I had found my Chevra. And during that time I did a lot of like my group of friends, um and they became my entire family, you know, because you have to develop alternate families when your family's rejecting you.
SPEAKER_04:So you thought me your parents were not into this at all.
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, not in the beginning. They had a wonderful evolution, but it took like 20 years.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And only until they met my partner, Mara, and they fell in love with her too. But it was like I'd kissed a lot of frogs, you know what I'm saying? Like it was like, okay, Miriam, when are you gonna get married? Finally, like they were so sick of like me not being settled. All their other five children had settled down that I think they were throwing in the towel a little bit on the gay thing. They just wanted me to be happy.
SPEAKER_04:At what age were you when they were throwing in the towel?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, I was like 35 or something.
SPEAKER_04:At what age were they?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, um, my mother, like in their 70s, I think. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Parents, I I've spoken about this. Parents get to a point where they're like enough worrying about you, they're more worried about themselves. Uh it's like, okay, okay, gay, gay. I gotta make sure I get to the center and I gotta make sure we get the groceries, and I got them, they're more on that. But yeah. Yeah, yeah. They don't have that fight in them to like, but but right, right.
SPEAKER_01:And I was the last one to, you know, leave home basically. I just I needed, I don't know how you felt, but I needed more of them. Uh, you know, growing up one of six, you're like in this crowd of people. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:No, you're not gonna get the hell out of there.
SPEAKER_01:You wanted to get the hell out of there. Yeah. So that, yeah. So the older kids in my family also just immediately left. Uh, and I just hovered. And I just needed more with them and time with them and um and to r reconcile. And after a long time, you know, they finally gave in. Um, and then Mara and I shared our dream, like we, you know, we got together with her parents and my parents. We're like, so let's talk about the wedding. And um, Mara and I had a real vision for the wedding. Really? Really big vision. And we said to them, first, like, okay, but what's your vision? And the four of them had gotten together and they had talked about what they thought our wedding should be. And they said, Well, we're gonna all go on a cruise and we're gonna do like a little ceremony on the deck of the cruise, and that's how you'll get married with the six of us there.
SPEAKER_04:And then pushed them all off. That's what I was saying. There you go. And then we're gonna all jump overboard. Man overboard. We're going to the buffet.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:We're going to the buffet. It's insane to me. I'm gonna have to stop it. You asked your parents what their vision for your wedding is. That needs to be. I think most people do, though. Most people do.
SPEAKER_01:In, you know, how am I gonna get them on board if I don't know what they're thinking? Yeah. Um, and then, you know, they looked at us and they were like, well, we told them that our vision, they were like, that's not our vision. And ours was, you know, 250 people for an entire weekend retreat over Shabbos and then a big freaking wedding on Sunday with the klasmatics and, you know, all that. So that's what we had in the end. They gave in. And I think they were so happy because they got to celebrate. And they actually were terrified that I was gonna be lonely and sad and have zero community. Because when they were growing up, you know, that's what they saw. They didn't know a single, well, they knew like one single gay person, and that person was really scary to them or not healthy. Like my father was um a doctor during the AIDS crisis on the lorry side. He saw a lot of people come through his door. So the first thing that he said to me was like, the only people I know who are gay have AIDS. Either they have AIDS if they're men, or if they're women, they're usually alcoholics.
SPEAKER_04:Wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And I was like, Daddy, uh, yeah, that's what I I've been explaining to that.
SPEAKER_04:You know, when we were growing up and we were in our twenties and thirties, the the gay wasn't associated with a congressman or uh or a doctor or lawyers that are all gay and gay flags everywhere. Gay was just AIDS. Right. That's all that was. So it was a very difficult time to come out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Very, very difficult time.
SPEAKER_01:But the AIDS crisis actually brought it up to the Jewish, the medical community and the Jewish community. Like, how do you how do you treat somebody who has AIDS, even though you think that what they're doing is completely wrong and how they got it, you know, is like um, you know, proof that they are evil or they're doing evil. So there was so much dialogue about like how you just treat somebody who's sick and dying. And and I think it changed a lot of people's hearts and minds back then. Um I think people had to look at gay people with compassion and um, you know, just like you know, let's see the person through, you know, beyond their illness and try to get to know them. So that's the world that I that he was in, and that's the world that I grew up, came out in. Um and so it was really hard for them. They did not think I was gonna be a happy person. So this humongous wedding was like proof to them. And it really at that moment they were like, oh, she wants just what the other five have. You know, like she wants, and she has it. She has this huge community. We have a huge, you know, thank God, amazing friends, amazing um Jewish community. No, it wasn't really in Eschel, because Eschel didn't exist at that point, but it was like a lot of Orthodox and conservative Jews who were our friends who accepted us and loved us. And my parents invited like a handful of their closest buddies, their friends, and they celebrated with us. And these are like Yu rabbis and you know, people who are out there in the Orthodox world. So they saw that it was possible. And I saw that it was possible. Okay, so um, but back to the group that I went into Jerusalem. I came back to New York after two years and started the same group in New York. It was called the Orthodox of New York. Maybe that's the name of this.
SPEAKER_04:Uh I'll keep that tab. Orthodox we're gonna use. What's the dice?
SPEAKER_01:And um every month we met at the center downtown, because you know, couldn't really meet in a Jewish space. And um, people would come every month, more and more and more people.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And we developed this amazing community of like, you know, 500, 600 women throughout the years that I did it. And a lot, there was a lot of organizing then in um, you know, on the upper west side, gay stuff, Jewish stuff.
SPEAKER_04:This is all before internet too. This is all before there was Facebook chat groups and WhatsApp groups and emails and all that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Just yesterday I let go of the domain name Orthodox.org. So uh literally, the guy called me and he's like, this is like really old. But I did have a website back in the 90s, and um and it was great. And it was really the beginning of this community that we have now. And um it's been a long haul, and we have a warm line, and I had a warm line back then. It's not a hot line, like it's not like emergency, it's like I need to talk. I don't have never set told this story to anybody, and so we get calls every week, and you know, when I had the orthodox group, I had a warm line and I got the same exact calls. So I kind of feel like you know, I was like 15, you know, 13 years ago when we started Ashell, I was like, okay, but like in 13 years we wouldn't we won't need this anymore. But it just keeps happening. Yeah, you know, and so there's a lot of education that we need to do in the Orthodox community.
SPEAKER_05:Um so wait, but how did you how did you sort of transfer from the orthodox group into Eschel? Because Eschel is not necessarily female focused.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right. So I actually had a bigger vision for my orthodox group that it would become a little bit more like what Eschel is today, like not just for women, but also for parents. And um I was invited to a big conference um at one point, and that's sort of where Eschel started to form. It was like a lot of different people who were doing organizing in the Orthodox LGBTQ community coming together. And so Eschel's been a project, you know, that has come out of uh the efforts of people who had been doing this work undercover. And then, you know, finally we like got lifted up to be accepted in the Jewish community and the Jewish nonprofit world as just another nonprofit. But it took so long to be recognized. And I like I have this article I'm working on called Eschel's the Middle Child, like we're the middle child of the Jewish, you know, nonprofit world. It's like you know, when you're buried inside of a community and nobody sees you, it's very hard to make your you know, your case and your voice heard, especially when people are afraid to come out. So um, but now I think you know, people have seen. And um remember, were you at um Rabbi Bellino Schull when we did that Shabbaton?
SPEAKER_04:The dinner, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:In 2016?
SPEAKER_04:With the cake that he made the long time ago.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was a long time ago, yeah. Um what was the 11 years ago, 2016.
SPEAKER_04:In 2016, um Eschel did a dinner at the street Sixth Street Community Synagogue with Rabbi Bellino from the podcast, and my good friend and my rabbi, um, an Orthodox synagogue, and there was a letter that went around all with all the other Orthodox rabbis in the area that they shouldn't do this. So Rabbi Bellino took the letter and had it printed for a cake. He made a cake out of it, and a sheet cake, and a sheet cake, and the dumb letter was there, and he and you know, we ate the cake on a rainbow sheet cake. On a rainbow sheet cake, yeah. And that was that's one of my favorite golf stories.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And he was brilliant. He was like, This you of course you're having it in our di in our shool, have your dinner here, have whatever you want here. And um, it was very, very, very I I actually Davened the uh Kablat Shabbat that night.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you did?
SPEAKER_04:Yep, I did.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:It was very, very nice.
SPEAKER_01:Beautiful.
SPEAKER_04:I did the evening service. I wasn't for you. No, it was like 11 years ago. I know, but by then I was like, okay, he doesn't need to be at everything. And that was one later. But and that was one that you didn't need to be at. Maybe you were there. I remember seeing the cake or at least a picture of it. So yeah, maybe you were there, yeah. Yeah, but that was a beautiful beautiful event.
SPEAKER_01:It's a brilliant move on his part. Genius. He just ate it, you know, literally. Like he just like said, okay, like you said, I don't care. And he didn't have anything to lose but down there, and he got a lot more.
SPEAKER_04:The synagogues down there with barely eight people. And and yeah, barely eight people, and but they've come around too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:They've come around.
SPEAKER_00:On the lower east side, on the lower east side. Tell me more.
SPEAKER_04:I tell you more. I live there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I I'm a I'm a pillar of the community. I'm a I'm a pillar of the community. The people, the Orthodox people live in my building, they live in the neighborhood, see us, they know us, they know what we've done, they know how we've helped other neighbors in the in uh in the neighborhood. Really, and they they see it, not from us telling them it's okay to be Orthodox Jewish, from them seeing somebody who's Orthodox Jewish behaving like an Orthodox Jew. Right. Uh uh Love thyself, love the neighbor as thyself. Seeing that coming from us, us helping people, us, us visiting their families when we're in Australia and all of that. And it it they saw it, they could they've come around.
SPEAKER_01:They see who you are, yeah, and they accept you, and they know you're gay, and and not just me, me and Leo.
SPEAKER_04:They know, yeah, 100%. Oh wow, yeah, you feel it too, the acceptance before you answer, just think before we we we left the other day, some woman stopped you, oh I absolutely love you. Yeah, yeah. So you feel it, yeah, yes, yeah, you feel it. It's changed, it's coming around.
SPEAKER_05:Orthodox, it's just a mind, it's just it's really sometimes uh screwy for me to like wrap my head around because I spent my whole life like running from religion, and then here I am. Like, I'm basically a Rebitzin at this point, like on tour. Like I said, on tour. I have been to every Jewish community in the world, like I've been so many rabbi studies acting as the green room, and I'm just sitting there and I'm looking at these walls of books and I read them, and I'm like, how did I end up here? I I don't understand.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe it's a tikkun. Which how do you say tikkun? Like uh a tikkun. Well, you know, you know.
SPEAKER_05:I know, I know you understand what that is, but maybe we should explain to our listeners. Tikkun is your thing that you've your cosmic challenge, karmic challenge, you've kind of sort of been assigned in this lifetime to work out an irony. Correct, yes, see, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Did I give it over God? Buddhism, little Judaism. Yeah, I love that. It's beautiful. You did. You gave it over great.
SPEAKER_05:I grew up um traumatized by the Catholic Church.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So that's why it was special for me. Well, it was just really crazy for me because I was a part of the actual event that Modi did, yeah, where we spoke on stage. Because now it's not just about you know uh being an observant Jew, it's also like, and he's in an interfaith marriage because I'm not Jewish. So everyone seems to forget that or think that I'm like converting, which for the record, that's not I'm not, but um not right now. There's that there's that dimension to it too, which people are like, wait, what? What's going on?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So um, you know, it's not it's what people do with religion. It's not religion. Do you know what I mean? So maybe that's the Tikun, like you're being loved and accepted right now by very religious people when they carry the same baggage as your, you know, the people in your upbringing and the Catholic.
SPEAKER_04:I'm not so worried about the religious people. I'm worried about people who are spiritual. Just because someone does all the religious things doesn't make doesn't impress me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:They learn Torah every day and they put on all the Tfillin and they Shabbist and they know that that does not impress me. If you're actually pulling the strength of what those things that you're doing out and making yourself a better person and then and a better person in society, yeah, that's it. If you're putting on your twill and you're putting on your tefillin with the with the purpose of this will help me restrict anger and whatever I need to restrict, then that that I that's that's that's the goal. Not to put on tefillin every day and tell somebody you don't put on teffillin, I put on fillin' every day. So so that's uh that's um like not by room. So religious people don't really just people who are good spiritual people, yeah, maybe they find their spirituality through doing religious things, which is which is I do. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, yeah. That's the goal.
SPEAKER_04:So, how do people become a part of Eschel? How do people who are listening to this now and know somebody who might benefit from Eschel? How do we bring it back to Eschel?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, good, thank you. So I ex we had an amazing event last night. So I'm like very jazzed. Wow. Uh it was a sukkus party on the upper west side, the JCC in Manhattan. It was sold out. We had to move inside because of the Nor'easter, but it was still incredibly wonderful. And people from all walks of life, but um new people. And like I've been doing this a long time, and the fact that I keep seeing new people and really, really young people means to me how desperately this is needed. And I met this 21-year-old from the Vishnets community.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And like he had a really interesting pais. I'd never seen paus like this.
SPEAKER_04:Vigenitz is a uh is a city in Europe, and in the Visionsidum, they live in Muncie and Square, in square. They live in square up upstate New York. And uh so this guy was a Vishnitz Achassid.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and terrified. And so somebody brought me over to meet him, you know, and um there was a ro I was like in a room with 250 people, so it's like really, really loud. And he leans in and he whispers into my ear, you're saving my life.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:And when I hear that, and I do hear it, you know, very occasionally, uh, you know, whatever, like every month or two, I get that. And I'm like, oh my god, this is so important what we're doing. And I don't always remember if someone says that to you, what what what do you go through?
SPEAKER_04:What what what happens to you when someone says you are saving my life? Well, how what do you feel?
SPEAKER_01:I I want to cry. A lot of crying. Um, I feel incredibly proud of the work we've done, incredibly proud of my team. You know, we're 10 10 staff people and um proud of our supporters and our funders and people who understand the importance of what we do. And I realize it's not over because you know, I have an interest in keeping orthodoxy as alive as possible. I love my orthodoxy, I love what we do in the world, I love the you know, the sparks that we bring out, you know, this the holy sparks that we break out into the world. I feel like we have a real purpose here. So like I have an interest in orthodoxy surviving. And as long as there's orthodoxy, there's gonna be gay Orthodox Jews.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So we're always gonna be doing this, is what I also feel. I'm like, okay, we can't quit.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I don't think there's ever gonna be some like event horizon where this is ever just everything just stops and is not needed.
SPEAKER_01:Especially not in the Hasidic. So it's interesting that you're saying this.
SPEAKER_04:So, you know, so we our synagogue, Sixth Street synagogue, Sixth Street Community Synagogue on Sixth between first and second in the lower in the lower east, in the in the east village. You know, it's an Orthodox synagogue. Yeah, men and women sit on different sides of the synagogue. There's not like some crazy wall, there's like uh a little design thing on the chairs, but you can see across and there's also light. Machitza light, yeah. Nice and um, and the the service is orthodox. Yeah, and the rabbi is a man, yeah, and the men getting the aliyas are and it's an orthodox service. And people that come to us that are gay are like, thank God, this is what I like. I enjoy this. Yeah, the women, like I this is what a synagogue to me is, right? They don't want which is great, a reform or conservative, that's your jam where everything is explained in English, yeah, and a sermon, and they read poems in the middle, which is great, and if that works for you, and that brings you to synagogue and that's your community, amazing. Yeah, but people who love orthodoxy, the songs, the motif of the prayer, the the um the the way the prayers go and and and the the the the learning of the Torah from from within that and the sermons, yes, and you're and if you're gay and you still want that. Yeah, you still want that.
SPEAKER_01:There's nothing in you that says once you come out that you shouldn't want it.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And so it's what you're used to. So that synagogue provides that. Yeah, there are people there who are straight, gay, there's trans people there, and it's an orthodox shoul. And and it's and it's an amazing, and people from the podcast have been coming and sending their friends, and please uh go to their the the the website and go to um to their page on Instagram and stop by.
SPEAKER_05:So, what would you say like the silos of support that provides are, especially because you said the parents are such an important part of the equation?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, good. So I you know I was talking about this party last night because we have a lot of events now in New York. We um have a full-time person doing events, so it's like meeting people is the most important thing to break isolation and for your mental health. Like that young man said that to me because he was surrounded by men who were like he finally got to talk to, you know, and be who he was. So I would say come to our events if you're near you know where we are. We have a few chapters across the country, but we actually have a very robust program in New York. Um, we have this incredible retreat every year, and it's exactly what you just described, except one thing, and that is that being LGBTQ is completely like fine, right? It's celebrated. It's you know, it's a happy place to have all of your orthodoxy and who you can be exactly who you are in one place. You know, people say like this is the only Shabbos of the year I can live fully in my truth. So like I would encourage somebody as a gateway, if you're up for it, well, if you need like one-on-one support, we have a lot of people who we connect people with, like as mentors, and we you know, call our worm line and um visit our website, obviously, and and if you're ready for like actual in-person contact, there's a lot of events going on. We also have like three to four support groups every week for different, you know, different segments of our population, mostly all on Zoom. Um, and then after so the story of the parents is that after about um three years of doing Ash L just for LGBTQ people, some parents heard that their son came to the uh national retreat. And I think he came on scholarship and he didn't need a scholarship. Like in other words, his parents would have sent him had they known. And when he told them, they were so sad that he felt he couldn't just tell them that he was coming, you know, and they would have helped him get there. So after they came, he came back and told them about it and you know, really shared what the experience was like, the parents called us and said, Well, can we come to the next one? And we're like, No, no, no, this is for gay people. And they said, Well, we need to come out. You know, we're like orthodox parents, not a single person in our life knows. And we need a place where we can just be ourselves. And actually, if somebody asked me a question after Daviding and over kiddish, you know, how's my son David? Like, I can actually tell them how he is and who he's dating and what he's doing. So this this this couple actually helped us the folds, right? You um at we honor them at the at the event that you were at, and um so they helped us start the parent retreat. And um, we've been doing this for about 11 years, 12 years.
SPEAKER_05:Do you take Catholics? I'll send my parents on scholarship.
SPEAKER_01:Um, you know, the truth is the first year we actually brought in a woman who worked with the Mormon community and she had a film about Mormons, and it was really good. It was because nothing right now exists really about Orthodox parents, and but uh we like to look at other cultures and see like how similar we are. You know, we're very similar. And I I'm I'd be happy to talk to your parents. Like I'm really serious about this. No, like I have so much to say to parents because I suffered so much. I suffered with my siblings, you know, it took us years to repair. Like Haval al-Hasman, they say in Hebrew, like, don't waste my time, life is short, you know?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm sorry to hear that they're having a hard time.
SPEAKER_05:No, it makes me happy that there's like this, you know, to counterbalance it in you know, in the world that exists for people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's really all the same. But yeah, like, you know, they're high.
SPEAKER_05:I tell Modi, I grew up from just not Jewish.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
unknown:Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So again, so this Eschel is is an amazing place for anybody who's Orthodox, or if you know somebody who's Orthodox and going through through it. Yeah. But it's also just be a proud Jew and be you. Exactly. You want to keep you wanna light candles, light candles, you want to learn Torah, learn Torah. You f I I think one of the most most important things, and this is I I I'm just blessed that I landed in this synagogue. But if you're in a synagogue that doesn't accept you, you're in the wrong synagogue. If you're in the synagogue that does not accept you, you are in the wrong synagogue. And find someplace else.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Find and I understand I live in New York where there's a there's a 30,000 synagogues here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you have your pick.
SPEAKER_04:But find, you know, I'm sure Eschel has some kind of a Zoom programs or stuff, or or I I mean, I I don't know, but I just not go to someplace that doesn't accept you.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So I never I never tell someone to do that if it's not gonna feel good for them or if it's gonna really damage their psyche or mental health. Like I I never say, go back to the show you grew up in, you know.
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_01:But I'll say we have this project called the Welcoming Shules Project, um where we've interviewed 300 or orthodox rabbis across the United States to see like where they are on you know, like a scale of acceptance. And if an LGBTQ person came through their door, what would their experience be like?
SPEAKER_04:What were the findings?
SPEAKER_01:And so the findings are that in their heart we've only really received compassion. But like where the rubber hits the road, some will say, I really can't handle this, I really don't know how to deal with this. You know, um we ask a series of questions like if a gay man came in, would you give him an aliyah? Would you let him lead Zavening? You know, all the things. Um if a couple had children, would you give them a bat mitzvah?
SPEAKER_04:And what they say.
SPEAKER_01:No, so they're all over the place.
SPEAKER_04:Literally to the top, though.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there are so absolutely. So those are the ones that have come out and they are on our website.
SPEAKER_04:That's a good thing. That's amazing. That's crazy. I will tell you, I I performed in Chabad houses than they could afford me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So many years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And you walk into a Chabad house anywhere in the world, and they began in the little, the little in the basement of some house, and now they are a massive center with a day camp and an old age home and a big synagogue, and you walk in there, and the rabbi and the the rabbi's wife, the Robertson, uh uh, they tell you, and you know, for the show tonight, we have people who are Israeli, people who are Latino, we have we have a few gay, gay, gay couples here, and and we love them, and their kids are doing great in the day school. And it's like, and they they and we we we and their kids are in the day school, and they they're uh one of the some of the best students we have in the in the day school. And then like you really see be a hatalerecha kamocha, love thy neighbor as thyself, you know, because when they send their kids to a yeshiva, they want someone to treat their kids the same way they're treating the kids of this gay couple. Oh, beautiful is an Orthodox, you know, yeah, it's a Chabad, black hat, the whole nine yeah, so yeah, so I don't think all Chabad houses are that uh welcoming, but the the the ones I was at are very, very welcoming.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. No, good. So for the most part, we have found that Chabad rabbis always say every Jew is welcome, and they really, really mean it. Yeah. Um, my brother's Chabad and he has eight kids and they all do do schlichas, you know, they all do their thing.
SPEAKER_04:And and in the beginning, like when I Wait, just don't just swoop over that. Okay, sure. One of your brothers is Chabad?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and he's got like a lot of kids, a lot of grandkids.
SPEAKER_04:So but he grew up not chabad. He grew up not chabad.
SPEAKER_01:Um, he did not grow up chabad, but my father was very close to the like the Rebbe's world. Yeah. He did like treated a lot of those people.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And so, and there's Chabad, there's some Lubavich in our lineage. So I don't know how my brother got into Chabad, honestly, but now his sons like own half of Crown Heights, which is fun for me. Like the butcher store, the bakery, the schools. Like, I don't know how they did it, but what's the name? Kabakov. Kabakov. Yeah. There's like a car rental. I'll get you a free car.
SPEAKER_04:That's amazing. I'm I'm I'm a full sh I am a full Sliakh of the Labajarab.
SPEAKER_00:You are oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:Every time I get on stage, every time I get on stage, I feel I that's my chabat house.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:That wherever I am, that's my chabat house for the next hour and 10 minutes. Yeah. Make them laugh, make them feel good, make them feel proud to be Jewish. Yeah. The people who are not Jewish there will connect to the Jewish people. 110% I feel that I am a Slik of the La Baba Charebi.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:100%. Not not not even like a speck of dust of doubt in that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. When did you tell you that?
SPEAKER_04:When he detailed, he told me that when I was in college. He gave me a doll and says Brahabatzlacha.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you actually I thought you were like communing with him.
SPEAKER_04:No, many times. I I do communicate with him. Yeah. I go to his grave and pray. And I do communicate with him.
SPEAKER_01:What did he say to you?
SPEAKER_04:He said brachabatslache. He told me help somebody, and that's when you'll get the blessings back in your life. That's 100%. 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, yeah. So the Chabad folks are super good. So when so when I started to come out to my nieces and nephews, I checked in with my brother, Shlomo, and I was like, is it okay to come out to them? And he's like, No, no, no. You need to go live with them for a while because they're gonna go out in the world and they're gonna meet all sorts of people. Yeah. So actually, they need to like know how to talk to you and need to understand who you are. And they're totally loving. I mean, I'm in love with my nieces. I have like 35 of them. They're like, every single one is special. Um, yeah. So so the Chabad rabbis are always loving. When the rubber hits the road, honestly, though, like where can someone feel fully like they belong? Like they belong the same way they belonged the day before they came out. Do you know what I'm saying? Like they were part of the fabric of the synagogue. Then they come out and all of a sudden they can't do X, they can't do Y, they can't do Z. Um, or they can't sit where they want, you know, where what their gender is. So uh that's sort of where we start working. That's where the work begins. Because you, you know, you're like, great, you know, don't go to a shoal that doesn't really accept you. A lot of people don't have that choice.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:It's either that show.
SPEAKER_04:But now your your website, your your website now helps you find the place.
SPEAKER_01:So now we have like, I think about 40 shoals listed, but it's like, you know, across, you know, mostly East Coast, but also, you know, across the country. And we're working on having rabbis come out as true allies. And every single day, like our new kind of we did a strategic plan, our new thing is like allyship. Because every modern Orthodox Jew knows a gay person or they know somebody who has a gay kid. Like, how could it not be, right? So, like the allies are really where we're trying to like get energy from and support from. Um, because it's like you have to be compassionate to your friend and your friend's kids, you know, like you're part of their life and all of a sudden you're gonna reject them.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly. Love thy neighbor as thyself, compassion to them, the same compassion you would want for to back back at you.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Exactly. And just like you did yesterday. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And on that note, we should thank our sponsors.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Speaking of compassion.
SPEAKER_01:Let's hear it.
SPEAKER_04:Speaking of compassion, we have um AH provisions. The most deli you know them? Like herring AH? No, AH, like hot dogs.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Delicious hot dogs. Beautiful kosher koshadogs.net is their website, and 30% off your first order with promo code Modi. Seth has been an ally of this, a true ally of the podcast. We love him, and we're so happy that he's a part of this. And also, Whites and Luxembourg, the law firm that not only does well, they do good, super philanthropic. Also, an ally. Arthur Luxemburg is like my brother and Randy, his wife, listens to the podcast to tell him what we talk about. And um, and they are uh amazing allies.
SPEAKER_05:And um and where can people find you if they want to be an ally? Yeah. What's the best way to reach you?
SPEAKER_01:So our website, eschelonline.org. Spell me, spell it out.org or info at eshlonline.org.
SPEAKER_05:I'll l I'll link all of these in the description of the bio.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Was this the Eschel O-N-L-I-N-E?
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, because there's so many Eschels out there. Yeah. A lot of Eshels in Crown Heights.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There's a hotel, there's now a restaurant. We get we were getting calls like people were trying to reserve like rooms. Oh, that's right. And after like the fifth one, I would like take the reservation. We got a few credit card. Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. So Leo, Leo will we link up everything to for for for you to to help people and reach and let them reach you. And if and not just you, if you know somebody who might my guy was was really, here's a website you might want to visit. And he goes, I'm not gay. I'm just a feminist. It's for your friends. For your friends.
SPEAKER_00:Give it to your friends.
SPEAKER_04:Friend of Dorothy.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Where are you going to be, Modi? Oh my goodie, goody, goody goodness, goodness graciousness. Uh, I'm on ModiLive.com, M O D I L I V E dot com. We have shows coming up in oh wow. San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver. We have shows in Miami. This is gonna be the last play in Miami for a while until we are at the Hard Rock Cafe. So, this you want to get those tickets at the at the improv um in Miami and then Syracuse. At the improv in Syracuse, we're gonna be there working out the new hour for the taping of it in Atlanta on December 10th and 11th. We have shows in Europe. We are gonna be in Vienna, Paris, um, Amsterdam, and Berlin. These are amazing, amazing shows with amazing, amazing audiences. We're going back, these are revisited markets and with a new show. And um, everything's available on mortilive.com and be the friend that brings the friends to the comedy show. Don't just get tickets for yourself, get tickets for your friends and make it an event, make it a fun thing. Um, and that really creates mashir energy, and that is also uh we have merch that says mashik energy. I think this year we are in a new year, and mashir has to be in the conversation. When you say hello and say goodbye, say mashik energy. Bye, mashik. Just so the word mashik is out there just so because you know how many times you're like, I was just talking about him. Just mesh just should be in the conversation. That's that's my real goal for this upcoming year.
SPEAKER_01:Amen, amen.
SPEAKER_04:That's it. Thank you so well, yes.
SPEAKER_01:I know I want I thought we were gonna have a forbrengen, honestly. There's so much to celebrate today in the world.
SPEAKER_04:There is. There is. We are we are um uh as we we we mentioned, we are here now uh calm and collected, but our phones are blowing up with the hostages coming out, and it's just Meshir energy. Yeah, and uh and speaking of forbringen, which is just getting together and laugh, you know, did you ever think of changing the name of your support groups to just forbrengen? For bringen, just it's the support group, so it's like we just taken, you know, there's this other thing.
SPEAKER_01:So I don't know. So that's what that should be. I love that. Absolutely, Tish.
SPEAKER_04:Tish.
SPEAKER_01:There's always a Tish at our retreat, so a table.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, look at Tish, you know, a little table with something to eat. What T. LGBT? LGBT.
SPEAKER_01:That was great.
SPEAKER_04:LGBT make the merch, run the t-shirts. That's it. Thank you all very much for listening. We we love you and appreciate it. Hope to see you the at a live show uh real, real soon. Bye. Bye.
SPEAKER_01:Bye.